Gavin Newsom on why Democrats got 'crushed' by President Trump | BBC News

Speaker A [00:00:00]:

Governor, we appreciate your time. Thank you for talking to Newsnight. Can I start with your lawsuit against the Trump tariff regime? Can you tell me to what extent this represents you giving up on the Congress to exercise states and checks and balances? Can I ask, to what extent does your lawsuit on Trump's tariff regime represent your verdict that checks and balances have been dropped by. By the U.S. congress?

Speaker B [00:00:27]:

Yeah. The best of, you know, the Roman Republic, Greek democracy, the system of, you know, checks and balances, rule of law, popular sovereignty, the principles of our founding fathers. You're absolutely right. Have been completely disrupted in this new Congress. The speaker of the House of Representatives, nowhere to be found as it relates to oversight across the spectrum of issues, but notably on the issue of tariffs. 

And the President of the United States simply does not have the legal authority under the Emergency Economic Powers act to impose tariffs. Period. Full stop. And that's why we're the first state in our union to file this lawsuit. And it's been followed by 12 other states, including now conservative business interests that also see the merits of our approach.

Speaker A [00:01:11]:

I'm wondering as well if you will come under fire for being the Democratic governor suing your own federal government. This is part of the strategy dilemma for Dems. Do you play dead or do you fight fire in the courts?

Speaker B [00:01:28]:

Yeah, look, I mean, the contrast of that, the flip side of that is a Republican attacking states happen to be democratically led, like California, the fourth largest economy in the world, $4.1 trillion of economic output. 40% of America's goods movement come through just two ports of entry in Long beach and Louisiana. And California. We dominate in manufacturing. Across the spectrum of innovation and entrepreneurialism. The impacts of these tariffs, the recklessness of these tariffs are disproportionately felt on the tentpole of the US economy. 

We're 14% of the US economy. So the success of this country is in many respects determined by the success of this state. So for me, it's the prism not of red and blue, but red, white and blue. The United States of America needing to assert itself with a consistent posture that allowed it to be the envy of the world. When Trump got here over 100 days ago, the most dominant economic country on the globe, the economy was booming and inflation was cooling. Allies were being strengthened. So it's a profound and inconsequential moment.

Speaker A [00:02:40]:

Okay, because I think you took me away from my question there, which is about your strategy, if you're seen to attack your own government, and if it's not about red, white and Blue, be candid about the failures of the Democrat Party. How much did your chaotic campaign help create the 47th president?

Speaker B [00:02:59]:

Well, we're doing a forensic on that, and I think that's a deeper question of what happened.

Speaker A [00:03:03]:

But it's a good question, isn't it? Because you ran a candidate in Joe Biden who I think you were having to go into the spin room on in the debate where he couldn't speak.

Speaker B [00:03:12]:

Yeah, well, that was a challenging night for all of us, particularly, as you rightfully say, as one of his chief spokespersons at the time, trying to make a case at that moment. And look, I was making a case for what the Biden administration did to strengthen our allies around the world and what I thought was a master class in domestic policy making. But obviously we landed with 107 day campaign with Kamala Harris. I thought she ran a very good campaign. It was a challenged campaign. Of course, we lost. We lost the popular vote and we lost the electoral vote. We got crushed. 

And we need to be humble about that and we need to have some grace and we need to understand why. Was it because of the incumbency penalty? Was it because of inflation? Was it because of interest rates? Was it because of immigration? Was it because we were too, quote, unquote woke? Was it because of issues with Israel? Was it all of the above? I think we are going through that forensic. We need to understand at the same time, we also have to push back against the Whitewaters and headwinds of the Trump administration.

Speaker A [00:04:09]:

But I mean, is it. You're leaving something very important off the list. Governor, you also ran a candidate who could not reliably talk, walk or ride a bicycle. Take me into Gavin Newsom's soul. When you had to tell reporters from around the world why the United States president could not complete a sentence.

Speaker B [00:04:30]:

Well, it was. Obviously, we're challenged as it relates to that debate. But let me if you're asking about my soul, which I appreciate, you're asking about my direct engagement and interactions with former President Joe Biden, who was not our nominee. 

But as it relates to his campaign and what those decisions decisions look like, as it relates to his determination whether or not to continue that campaign or end it as he did, I never hadperiod, full stop, I would be lying to you, and I won't lie to you as it relates to the direct engagement I had with Joe Biden that ever suggested a cognitive decline to the degree that we saw, to the degree we saw at that debate night. 

And so that was a challenging moment. And of course, over the course of the next few weeks, that moment became a monumental decision where he decided to pass that baton. And Kamala Harris, as vice president, became our nominee.

Speaker A [00:05:21]:

And just to my earlier question, when we ask how the circumstances were created whereby Americans exercise a choice between candidate A and candidate B, a weak, bad campaign by your party helps explain the 47th president?

Speaker B [00:05:38]:

Well, I think it's a lot of conditions. There are a lot of pre existing conditions. There were certainly a lot of situational challenges as it relates to the headwinds and the inflation scars and the challenges that we were working through as it relates to the impacts of costs. 

And of course, those were felt around the globe, wasn't unique in the United States. But that said, our circumstances are certainly unique. And so, as I say, look, a lot of humility and grace. We lost, he won, period, full stop. And we've got to own up to that and we've got to get stronger and better.

Speaker A [00:06:06]:

But you said that the Democrats talked down to people. I'm just looking for a couple of sentences for British viewers who don't know your candor as well as perhaps the others who know you. Just be candid with the Brits. The Democrats messed it up.

Speaker B [00:06:19]:

Well, we lost and we didn't make the case and we didn't meet people where they are. And people right now, people right now do not have confidence in the Democratic Party. I love my party and we have to own that. There was some recent polling just to underscore it. 

So people listening and watching can appreciate your question. And I'm trying to be as candid as I can. We were 27% approval in the United States of America. And even with the Democratic Party, Democrats aren't feeling that strong about our party. 

Now that's beginning to change. Trump is the obstacle in the way. He's also the obstacle which we will find our way back. That said, we have to own up to the fact that some people, fundamentally, the majority of people that turn out and voted did not feel we had their interests at heart. And so we have a lot of work to do to reengage those folks and to get our party back on track.

Speaker A [00:07:09]:

And thank you for bringing some data. It's no good if I just interrupt you from the UK and on the other side of that figure, While it was 27 approval of Democrats in Congress, it was 37% approval for Republicans in Congress. So we've spoken about the scale of the problem. 

Let's look to the future. There's a great talk of a SWAP governor where Kamala Harris runs for the governor's mansion in California and Governor Newsom runs for the White House in 2028. Will you give us that scoop tonight?

Speaker B [00:07:41]:

I appreciate it. I don't know about the framework of a swap. That's major determination of the people that represent. I represent currently in the state of California. I don't know the state of mind of the former vice president. She's a close friend and an ally. 

I was just with her husband, full disclosure, 72 hours ago. He didn't lead me on to any understanding or insight as to what decision she's going to make. She just gave a speech that got some attention a few days San Francisco, but didn't leave many clues about whatever decision she's going to make. But I am termed out and I have another 18 months and we'll see where fate takes us.

Speaker A [00:08:14]:

Will, could fate take you to the White House? Would you run?

Speaker B [00:08:19]:

Well, I was at the White House with President Trump for 90 minutes as governor. I can be there many different, wearing many different hats. I don't know is the answer. I care deeply about my state. I don't want to be one of those politicians bloviating and trying to equivocate on this. I honestly just don't know what fate will hold. 

I have strong opinions about where my party is, as you noted. And I appreciate this. I've been very candid about that. It's been received well and not so well in certain sectors of my party. I'm just trying to be candid about my own feelings and trying to be accountable as well about my own contributions as it relates to the state of our party, not just the state of our union. Here.

Speaker A [00:08:59]:

Let me turn to your record because that would be important if you did run. Your critics characterize California as Califalia. You particularly in the firing line over your record on fighting fires when reservoirs were under repair and trying to tackle homelessness with soar away figures in the wrong direction. Just as a man who's given a mansion by voters, the governor's mansion, does it keep you awake at night to walk past soulless zombie Americans on fentanyl propping up your pavements?

Speaker B [00:09:32]:

Yeah, it's disgraceful what's happening on the streets and sidewalks. And I've been the most vocal governor in California history. When I got here, there was no homeless strategy, no homeless plan, 68,000 people. We've gone off the streets and sidewalks. And I'll note, before I got here, we had a 50% increase over five years in the number of homeless in California. There were 44 states that had higher growths last year. 

We had the lowest numbers we've ever seen for vets. And we made tremendous progress as it relates to unsheltered homeless. And we're finally moving in the right direction. But it is an absolute disgrace. Decades in the making. I own responsibility over the last six years, but I also am proud to have been the author of a lot of strategies that we believe are having an impact and we're just getting started now. 

That said, let me add this. We're the fourth largest economy in the world. We just asserted ourselves in that stead. We're population growing. We dominate in every key industry we have. More Fortune 500 companies in the state dominate in two way trade scientists, engineers, more Nobel laureates and venture capital any other state in the country. All of those things are true. And as it relates to those wildfires, we are proud of the fact that California has the most aggressive firefighting fleet in the country. And I acknowledge the devastation of these fires. But you should acknowledge that we had 110 engines pre positioned for them. We were on site within 90 minutes. And that devastation is very raw and real and we're doing everything we can touch to get that part of our state recovered.

Speaker A [00:10:59]:

I'd like to ask you when I leave you to sing the praises of California and I know it runs very deep in your heart and you must feel very proud of the people who fought the fires. There's criticism and there's pride. So thank you for telling me about the greatness of California. I will ask you to sing up for your state. 

Let me ask you about unconventional politics before I get there. We've just had an election result in the UK which shows that the big established century old parties can't really deal with voters who get their news from views, other people's views. And I wonder how much this is explaining your own podcast which you've launched because you're trying to get to voters. Would you like to come out on Newsnight as conservative curious Governor Newsom?

Speaker B [00:11:44]:

Well, I don't even need to come out on that. I've always been conservative. I'm open argument, interested in evidence. I'm not an ideologue. I want to success leaves clues and I'm just a little bit of background your viewers. I'm a small business person, started pen to paper right out of college with a part time employee, grew to about 1,000 employees, 21 businesses. I don't say that to impress you but impress upon you passion for Free enterprise for the private sector. 

I'm a pragmatic Democrat. I'm progressive on social issues, very pragmatic as it relates to a fiscal approach and approach to the private sector. That said, I look for inspiration wherever I can find it. That's the entrepreneur in me. And so I did a podcast in order to explore that, to sit down with Charlie Kirk, who's been incredibly effective for the Republican Party and the mega movement, sat down with Steve Bannon, who really previewed what we're all now experiencing, the recklessness of these tariff policies. And I think it's important for both parties to have civil dialogue and engagement. And that's the approach I'm taking with the podcast.

Speaker A [00:12:46]:

The polarization is terrifying, but it's just that Steve Bannon, Bantering with Bannon. He's a guy who says the election was stolen, the J6 people. So, I mean, it's all very well, but facts are still virginal, are they not? But let me just ask you.

Speaker B [00:13:00]:

Yes, they are.

Speaker A [00:13:01]:

Yeah, well, he didn't. He's got the wrong fact, hasn't he? He thinks the election was stolen.

Speaker B [00:13:04]:

He's got a. He's got the wrong facts, but he also. And 100% on it relates to those issues. And by the way, he stipulated in our conversation that we have fundamental disagreements in that respect. But look, I also think it's important to illuminate both parties need to illuminate those major players on the other side. And we're running in these silos, and I don't think it's healthy for democracies around the globe. 

So I think it's important. We're not platforming folks, we're engaging folks. And I just think it's important around the world that we do this in a civil way. We can be robust. We can be, you know, reticent of one different points of view. But I think showing some humanity and the cause of trying to understand one another, I think is incredibly important.

Speaker A [00:13:48]:

And it's all the more important because of the shocking violence that's entered your system, your political system. Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, had his house torched. Your friend, the Pelosi family were attacked in their own home. President Trump, your political rival as a candidate, was shot. I asked you earlier about homelessness. Keeping you awake. Are you keeping awake at democracy and security of politicians in the United States of America?

Speaker B [00:14:17]:

Yeah. And I think this goes to the spirit of what we're trying to do here. It just the zero sum is talking down to people, past people, you know, everybody Screaming and yelling and, you know, the lack of humanity. Everyone wants to be protected in the spirit of safety. Everyone wants to be respected in the period of civility and engagement. And all of us want to be connected to something bigger than ourselves and a cause. And I'd like to find that cause again. 

The United States of America. We want to be loved. We want to love. We want to, we all love our children, our communities. And so, you know, service, civility, grace, humility, I think are important tenants. And we're not seeing a lot of that in our national political discourse. And so, you know, if you can't, you know, it's not what happens to you, it's how you respond to it. And I'm trying to respond in a different way. 

That said, I'm, you know, we push back. I represent, again, a state larger than 21 state populations combined, which is the most un. Trumped state. I filed 16 lawsuits against Trump administration. But at the same time, you know, I'm married in a big Republican family. I have deep respect for people I disagree with. I love them, in fact. And so that's my approach. And I think we can all do better in that light because these, this violence is disgraceful. And I don't care what side of the political aisle it occurs.

Speaker A [00:15:33]:

Yeah. I mean, because there are things written about you which I'm not going to read out. And I wonder, do you worry at your own security?Speaker B [00:15:41]:You have no idea what you know and what I live. Trust me, this is, it's serious stuff. I'll just leave it at that. And we take it very, very seriously.

Speaker A [00:15:54]:

Well, I mean, I just respond by saying I'm sorry for you and your family. I can't imagine. And I think we can all say, as people who want a civil society, that we're sorry. But you have feared for your life is what you're telling me.

Speaker B [00:16:07]:

Yeah, look, I'm blessed because I have a lot of folks that have my back, but there are a lot of folks out there that don't have that level of support. I'm not naive about that as well. Look, divorce is not an option. We're all, you know, the spirit of Dr. King, American icon. We're all bound together by a web of mutuality. 

We're all in this together. And so, you know, that's the spirit we've got to get back to. This is a serious, serious moment. Democracy's fraying, people at each other's throat. This frame of, again, everything, zero sum. I'm going to get mine. That's what needs to change? Empathy, care, compassion. It's not just about power, dominance and aggression. The superpowers are empathy, care and compassion. And I want that back in our.

Speaker A [00:16:54]:

Political discourse on security. Two Californians by the name of Harry and Meghan are in the news today because Prince Harry wanted a better security deal in his eyes from the uk. Do you think our country has handled this member of the royal family well?

Speaker B [00:17:12]:

Well, I'm a little biased. I don't know. And I mean that. I quite literally haven't paid enough attention to how your country has handled it. I will say this. They're proud residents and I'm proud they're residents of California and I've gotten to know them. And you talk about those wildfires. 

I just want you to know without any fanfare, one of the first volunteers that I saw within hours of the fires was Prince Harry and his wife. And that was a point of pride. They didn't need to be there. And it's not the first time I've had dozen experience and by the way, I'm not exaggerating. 10, 11 experiences similar where the prince and Meghan have shown up. So that's all I can add to the conversation.

Speaker A [00:17:55]:

What were they doing in the firefighting crisis?

Speaker B [00:17:59]:

They were doing two things. They were showing up for first responders, of which they have a unique connection. And I see that in terms of the rapport. And they were also showing up for the community without being asked. They were there handing out materials and supplies, asking if they can get involved in the food banks and distribution of emergency supplies. I saw that in floods down in Santa Barbara. I saw that in other fires that got less attention. 

In the past, I've had the prince reach out to me on other causes asking how can I get involved in a way that doesn't generate all the attention? And that to me is a character test. That's my direct interaction. All the rest, I leave all that noise to others in more objective minds.

Speaker A [00:18:41]:

Two final questions, one political one, the promised one about the great Golden State. Just on the politics at the beginning of the time you kindly given us. You did say that maybe the Dems were too woke. In what way? What did you mean when you told me that at the beginning?

Speaker B [00:18:58]:

Well, I don't know. I mean, it was. It's one of, you know, there's a lot of theories in the case of what happened. Did she not connect with the voters on issues or did she not disconnect with Joe Biden on certain issues and show her independence? There were a lot of theories, including the issues around social policy and DEI and crt. 

A lot of three letter words that were weaponized by the right with respect, on the issues obviously of gender issues related to trans, trans sports and surgeries that were highlighted in the campaign. And so I think we just, in order to have a real understanding, an honest understanding of what happened and by the way, which is critical to the Democratic Party, we can't deny what happened at peril. We don't understand it moving forward. We can't win the next election until we understand why we lost the last election. I think that's one of the things we have to consider. 

I don't like the way people talk down to people, the trans community. That said, I have a difference of opinion that's gotten some attention here in the US with my party as it relates to trans sports. But you can say that with humility and grace to members of the trans community and still have their back. And that's the kind of balance I hope we can find in our party going forward.

Speaker A [00:20:05]:

Finally, Winston Churchill, the wartime leader of our country, said, the Americans always do the right thing in the end. And many people who are fans of your country love the optimism, the high blue skies. And we've portrayed a horrible, polarized mess in your politics. But do you still, are you still going to take me to the shining city on the Hill, the people, the places, the pride of Californians? Are you still going to take me there? Governor Newsom, come on.

Speaker B [00:20:34]:

I live in, you know, in Ronald Reagan's old office, the coast of dreams. There's the American dream and there's only one other state that attaches itself to the dream, and that's the California dream. And look in the spirit of Churchill, the spirit of Justice Brandeis, in a democracy, the most important office, the most important office, not president, it's not Governor. The most important office is office of citizen. And so alive and well. 

Citizenship is alive and well in the United States of America. And you're seeing that Donald Trump has woken the immune system. We went through a little resignation after his election and now people are rising again. I think that's healthy on both sides of the political aisle. Never count this democracy out.

Speaker A [00:21:14]:

Governor Newsom, thank you.

Speaker B [00:21:17]:

Thank you.